All Tall Small Bet Craps
We have a guest post today from Steve G who covers gaming topics at Phillygambles.com! We’ve been interacting on twitter for a while and he’s lending some numbers wisdom to a new craps bet that I found at G2E. Without further adieu…
Marc from AC2LV tweeted an interesting picture from the Global Gaming Expo (G2E) in Las Vegas this past week. It showed a detail from a craps table on the floor with new bet areas marked off.
As you play craps, you can choose the All Small bet that pays 34 to 1, the All Tall bet that pays 34 to 1, or the All or Nothing at All bet that pays a whopping 175 to 1. Bonus Craps brings a whole new level of excitement to players at Little Creek Casino Resort. But, alas, things are no longer normal in the craps universe since the creation of the Small, Tall, and All bets. Although they won their Pass Line bets, they boo you for rolling a 7 because their Small, Tall, and All bets lose. Remember, if a 7 appears at any time before all the numbers in the set, then the bet. Feature or bonus bets such as the Fire Bet offer a 1,000 to 1 payout, and the Small and Tall bets offer 35 to 1, while the All offers 175 to 1. These feature or bonus bets give craps players the chance of hitting a jackpot the way a slot player might hit triple-7s or a video poker player might hit quad aces or a royal flush.
The table was on display by Galaxy Gaming and the new bets were labeled as follows:
- All Small, 34 to 1, 2-3-4-5-6
- All Tall, 34 to 1, 8-9-10-11-12
- All or nothing at All, 175 to 1, 2-3-4-5-6-8-9-10-11-12
Marc asked if someone could determine true odds on those bets. That’s not as simple as it might seem because these are not one-roll bets like any craps, or a bet on one result compared to another like a hard 10. The bet is that all the numbers will be rolled before a seven, and that is not as simple to calculate directly.
A game simulation can estimate the odds, though. After 50 million trials, there is a reasonable estimate of the chances.
| Bet | Payout | Estimate Odds | Estimate House Edge |
|---|---|---|---|
| All Small | 34 to 1 | 36.9 to 1 | 7.7% |
| All Tall | 34 to 1 | 36.9 to 1 | 7.7% |
| All or Nothing at All | 175 to 1 | 188.7 to 1 | 7.2% |
So these bets have a higher house edge than bets on a single number at the roulette wheel (5.26% for a double-zero wheel) with a similar or higher payout. Certainly other prop bets on the craps table like a hard 6 or hard 8 offer a smaller payout (9-1 payout) with a higher house edge (9.1%).
However, 7.7% is still a lot higher than the house edge on the pass line (1.41%). Gamblers are much better off sticking to front line bets and pressing those bets by taking odds with zero house edge.
That is a grind, though, and this would seem a nice way to take advantage of those hot hands where the shooter rolls number after number before sevening out.
True, but there are other ways to benefit from a hot hand that will cost a lot less over a session an average session of craps. Let’s look at a couple of them.
Place Bets
Many players make place bets at the table. When a point is established, bettors place numbers, looking to get action on numbers other than the point. The 6 and 8 are popular choices, and for good reason. The house edge on those bets is a small 1.52% (provided that the player makes bets in multiples of 6 to get the true payout of 7 to 6). Placing the 5 or 9 cedes a house edge of 4%, while the 4 and 10 give a house edge of 6.67%. Note, however, all those bets have a smaller edge than the Galaxy “All” bets.
So a player could place all the numbers once a point is established, and have most of what the “All” bets have working, for a lower house edge. It would put more money in action, however. Using a multiple of 6 for the 6 and 8, it would be $64 each point for a $10 craps bettor, compared to $30 on the full menu of the Galaxy “All” bets.
Come Bets
Instead of playing the pass line, a $10 craps player could also just place a come bet after a point is established, getting more action in the game. If the bettor keeps placing come bets until a few come points are established, they can have multiple numbers working, and all for the same low house edge as the pass line. As a bonus, odds can be taken on the come bet, just like the pass line.
This is the advice Darwin Ortiz gives for getting more action in his classic book, “Darwin Ortiz On Casino Gambling”. That’s the same book where he gives the odds on the prop bets in craps, but asks the reader not to tell anyone they read his book if they make them. Ortiz thinks of all the prop bets as sucker bets, so despite the kind words to Galaxy on their innovation, you can imagine what Darwin Ortiz thinks of these bets.
Craps Odds Betting
Let’s compare how a bettor might do if they follow four different modes of play after every point is established:
- Making all three Galaxy All bets, for $10 each.
- Making all place bets, for $10 each ($12 on the 6 and 8), and taking the number down if it hits
- Making $10 come bets, until there are at the most 4 come points established
- Making those $10 come bets, and pressing them for $10 odds when a come point is established
After another 10M simulations, here are some results:
| Approach | Average Result per 100 trials |
|---|---|
| Galaxy All bets | -282.2 |
| Place bets | -248.1 |
| Come bets | -60.6 |
| Come bets with odds | -59.9 |
Quick thoughts. Craps is a negative sum game. All the approaches lose money over time. The Galaxy bets fare the worst. The place bets are close behind. Even though the 6 and 8 offer low house edge, the poor odds in the 4 and 10 are what makes the difference.
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The come bets offer a much smaller expected loss. In this case, taking the odds made a small change (and for the positive by a small amount in this run of simulated hands), but since there is zero house edge on the odds bets, the long-term expected loss for come bets with and without the odds should be the same.
The obvious counter to the come-bet approach by a Galaxy All bettor is that while those average losses may be larger for the Galaxy bets, when a hot hand does happen the payoff should be huge compared to what a few come bets could manage. After all, what’s even money on a few numbers compared to 34 to 1? We’re not playing 10 million hands, or even 100. Maybe 20-30 in a couple of hours at the table. If the Galaxy bet hits, that is a great night.
Here are some more figures for those 10 million hands, looking only at those events where one of the Galaxy bets would payoff, and what happens with our approaches:
| All Small Hits | All Tall Hits | All or Nothing at All Hits | |
|---|---|---|---|
| Place bets | 78.5 | 78.6 | 92 |
| Come bets | 14.9 | 21.1 | 34.2 |
| Come bets with odds | 63.3 | 69.5 | 113.3 |
Quick observations. By definition, All or Nothing At All means all the placed bets hit, so the average payout should be exactly $92, and it is. Also, here should be no difference between place bet outcomes for All Small or All Tall hitting. The bets are symmetric. And that looks to be the case.
In contrast, there should be a difference for the come bets between All Small and All Tall since the 11 is a winner whereas the 3 is a loser. That is seen in the average results.
The Galaxy makes a fair point. Even with odds, the come bet play for a $10 bettor is less than a tenth the payout for the Galaxy bet for a very hot hand. For that one even when it hits, the payout is much larger.
Overall, however, that bettor will spend a lot more at the table in exchange for that one big payout. And in the meantime there are plenty of good, but not “all or nothing” hands where a hot shooter will make a winning session for a come bettor.
Darwin Ortiz has it right. Sharp players should stick to the come bets.
But hats off to Galaxy Gaming. They have come up with a new bet on an established game with a high payout, easy to understand rules, and a house edge attractive to casino management. And also worthy of a long blog post.
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The All, Small, or Tall bets are made at the beginning of the shooter's hand - when he first gets the dice. You can bet any or all three of the bets. There are a lot of ways to play it. I've see guys toss out $5 and get $2 each on the Small and Tall and $1 on the All. I've also seen it go the other way, a buck each on the Small and Tall and $3 on the All. Or you could just toss out $3 and bet all three for a buck each. You can put me in that category. I consider it a 'recreational' bet - in the same category as Fire Bets, Harways, Horns and Hop Bets. I also like to use the All, Tall, and Small as dealer toke bets. Yeah, dealers would rather have a hand-in. But I'd rather have them in the game.
The Small and Tall bets pay $35 to 1 on the layouts I've seen.
The ALL pays $175 to 1.
WOW
If you want to get into the odds of scoring on any of these bets I'll simply refer you to the wizard of odds website. http://wizardofodds.com/craps/appendix4.html#smalltall
I will tell you that I've hit the ALL bet twice. On a long hand it can happen. The last time I hit it I tossed FOREVER trying to throw aces. Finally hit it on a Come Out roll, winning both the ALL and the World High-Low combo I often play on the come out. Yeah, that was $230 minus my $10 Pass Line bet.
All Tall Small Bet Craps Machines
The idea I've seen bandied about on other websites revolves around a strategy we often use when going for the sixth number in the Fire Bet - laying against the point to guarantee a win. Can this idea be profitably applied to the All, Small or Tall as well? The answer is - maybe.
Let's say you're shooting for the ten to complete the bet. If you make the ten you'll win $175 plus your pass line bet and odds. But who's to say you have to shoot from the right side? Why not play $25 on the DP and lay $50 to guarantee yourself $50 if you seven out or net $100 if you make the point? Seems like a logical approach to me.
On another tack - if your remaining point is the two three, eleven, or twelve - will the casino book a 'No Twelve' bet? I don't think so. But even if they did you'd bet betting something like $39 to win $1 (or whever they put the breakage). Not a logical play in my book.
Sooooo, that gets us down to the point where I'd like some participation from you guys. How many of you have played the All, Small or Tall bet? Where did you play it? What was your approach to the bet. Did you have any success at it?
I know Irish has hit it because he and about have of the class showed up at the dealer school in Vegas something like an hour and a half late because he had the dice and was not giving them back.
Stories?
Let's hear 'em.